Are we gonna debate this, literally?

For a couple weeks now I've been in Zechariah. I'm coming to the end of another trip thru God's Word and the final 3 books to go are all prophetic in nature, those being Zechariah, malachi and Revelation. I told my wife I wasn't looking forward to it, not because of the content of the books but because, when I have conversation with other believers concerning books such as these,  it gets to be quite challenging. 
Maybe it was because of some of that thinking, that might account for my struggling to get thru Zechariah these past 2 weeks. For some reason, my comprehension train slowed down but I think I got it up and running again tonight, thanks to finding a terrific resource on the Internet. So many things continue to amaze me.  Like the Internet and  the finding of the very things when I need them, and where these things are located ? Everywhere from a hokie sounding voice (TTB) to the corn fields of God's country (generationword.com)

When I think of some of the conversations I recently had , all I can do is scratch my head and wonder. One believer told me that any and all interpretation of scripture was right because it was the opinion of the one giving it and it needs to be respected. Kinda puts a lid on discernment thinkers for sure. It was after that conversation that I searched for and found those two sermons I posted earlier, on Zechariah. Two completely different views but to some, both acceptable. To that I say "not so fast  Charlie." 
But if anyone wants to liven up an otherwise dull christian party , one sure fire way too do so is to say something like "ya know, I don't think God is thru with the nation Israel yet".. then step back and watch the opinions fly. That party is no longer dull. 

Why? 

Good question. Because anybody n everybody has a view, and a different one at that. It's amazing. Some folks get touchy on this subject.  They politely disagree yet all the while, thinking of the other { oh u poor dear, how could u be so ill-informed} 
Of course, I myself, would never engage in such shenanigans (hack hack cough cough) 

It's because of conversations concerning Israel , I knew, as I read Zechariah, I'd have these discussions  and more times than not I'd welcome them. 
The subject will instinctively turn towards how one reads the Bible.. Literally or figuratively. Now the answer to the question of which one is correct, is.. "yes" 

How best to explain this. 
I routinely listen to like chapters , with opposing views , and in doing so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the dilemma. I'm gonna keep my opinions to myself for the moment mainly due to, if someone cares, they'll check things out themselves. 
The subject of Israel is not as complicated as we make it. Any newspaper could reveal that. 

But the thing that really floored me was when I was recently reminded, from Hebrews 6, that these matters of Escatolgy come under the heading of elementary teachings, not to be browbeat into the ground over the course of our lives but instead the writer of Hebrews encourages us to move on to maturity in such things as Christ as our High Priest. 

The subject of Israel is not to be approached with an open mind. More like an open Bible. There are several red flags to look for when an endless debate seems imminent but the foremost one could possibly be , when differing opinions hinge on the literal /figurative angle. Example :is the thousand years mentioned in Rev. literal or figurative? Trust me, no one ever wins that one. When this subject gets reduced to that, it gives more clarity to why Hebrews places it in th the elementary realm. 
Not to say it's not important. It's very important. It's the difference between knowing and not knowing the season of our Lords return. It may not be overly relevant to those in my age group, mid fifties, for it will be most likely be our grand children to live out these signs of the times, and having wise discerning grandparents that can point out more from our Scriptures what it means , just might come in handy if they ever would ask us.

The subject of Israel ain't going away anytime soon and I suspect that it's attraction to invite debate stems from.. that at some point , we stopped reading our Bibles in context, whole books at a time. We prefer our favorite belief from our favorite teacher. Guess none of us can escape that completely but the desire to shed past influences grows in me with each passing day, as well as each passing chapter I read. 
Best advice I can give anyone these days is ta shut up &... 

TryreadNit! 

This is good

When it comes to REAL it doesn't get more real than this.

Something said in it makes me think. that was ,  have high hopes : with low expectations.

At the time of me posting this I have still not comprehended that as it was said but I am working on it.

When you take away all the nonsense and the silliness the church doles out today, maybe one can come to this point as Joel n Rory did, but it is not easy. 

Funny what becomes real when it matters but good luck trying to find that in many churches.

What difference does it make?

Thats what some would say when it comes to teaching a text different ways . As I have found out it makes a lot of difference.
To prove this point , I found two sermons at random, from a same passage, Zechariah , from two individuals I am not familiar with. I had to be unbias in proving this here by not selecting people I favor and do not favor. It wasn't too hard to find other examples. 
I have found that a great way to come to truth is to compare differing views and find out as to the place they differ. This has truly helped me over the years. 

This first example is from one who teaches verse by verse , the second is not. It becomes clear after hearing both , one is left with a completly different sense of things, its hard to explain. Its best to leave the hearer as to make up their own minds as too which one is truth and why.

Listen to this first and ask yourself when finished if you have a clearer understanding.

http://www.generationword.com/audio_series/zechariah.html

then listen to this and ask the same

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?m=t&s=122403123337

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the difference. If people are ok with interpretations of a scripture that comes from the mind of a man alone than I guess that will have to be ok. But to say these two sermons are the same  by way of portraying what Gods Word says obviously puts that one in serious denial.
It boggles the mind how Christians blindly accept whatever comes at them.

Whatever we may or may not think of any one person, does not take play in this.All that matters is whats said and thats something many people have a problem with.  Joe Morecraft thinks Zechariah is giving us basic principles of christian living when nowhere in the text does it say this so I can only conclude he made this up in his mind. He read the passage but that was as far as it went. So many, do this. Read a text and that's the last you'll hear of it.

Galyn Wiemers went thru the passage word for word vrs by vrs. Whether I agree with all he said is another matter. At least he gave me the oppurtunity to do so. 

I have compared many many sermons to where I can now spot,  in an instant, law based preaching. 
Law based preaching, or sermons laced with things you should "do" to be a "better" christian, has the hearer of it defeated by the time they get home. Topical preaching and or drawn out series on selected passages is much like the whip cream on a banana split while never getting to the actual ice cream. 

In this day and age where words no longer have meaning, to stray from the scriptures is not a good idea. People no longer take in information as once did long ago. Staying closer to a scripture is vital in todays world . 
People cant spell hermeneutics let alone consider its meaning, so fast talkers can get away with much.

The biggest obstacle for the one who wants to read there entire Bible thru, in context from there church, will come from other believers. You'll be labeled criticizer or judgmental, even heretical, you have no joy.. The list is endless as to what you'll be labeled as. 

I've often pondered that over the last 8 years. One would think that a fellow believer who wants to go deeper in the Word, verse by verse, would thrill most church leaders. 

I guess my passion and thoughts go out to any frustrated believers but there not sure why. Upon the day you decide your gonna read God's Word in context, you'll soon discover that the Bible is not some self help book and all that law and works you've been weekly challenged to do in order to be a better christian,?  Turns out, the best you can achieve in this life is filthy rags. 

The subject of good works has become so confusing to the defeated christian that by the time they realize that these good works can afford them rewards in heaven, they just can't believe such a thing. 

All one has to do to see this is ask themselves, why, why why why, does my pastor have to tell me endlessly, how I should be living? Week after week, given the same repackaged (from a different scripture text) "to do"  list. 

My challenge to any frustrated believer, before leaving where you attend, just take whatever text your in, find a good verse by verse on the same text, mind you, not one where the text gets put in one's thinking (eisegesis, or making "u"  the subject) but one where the teacher begins with the text and pulls out what it says (Exegesis)  

What it does for me is force myself to ask the question, am I going to believe what man says God said or am I going to belive what God actually said.
We can't have both.

Experience this.

We should not confuse things like prooftexting & Exegesis.
We use words like  "connecting" and "experience"
We say things like "are you  connected with Jesus" 
or
"have you experienced Jesus?"
When this is done , a  nice stage is set for a message to be delivered, that's all about "you" which is called  eisegesis. 


Something I've just been thinking about. 
Has anyone but me ever notice how people, during any conversation can toss out a phrase or two that completely deflects one from the subject you were trying to convey.

 There are many ways this is done.
People use their  experiences as a measuring stick to Guage any success or failure of whatever it is they are discussing at the time.

 Such an individual  thinks they have the upper hand in communication like this, but do they?


Some folks would call this blog,  my "experience" but they'd be wrong. Saying things like that is a popular deflection tactic that keeps people at odds.
Talking about ones experiences is a Christians way of not committing to anything.
Chances are, my experience wont be your experience .
Some Christians talk about their experiences and give God the praise and that is good.
Others tell of their experiences as proof of whatever they believe.
But we must keep in mind, experiences are highly subjective. We need to be careful here.

These days, someone can be saved, and a week later be standing up in front of many church's, telling of their experience.

Experiences from the pulpit is called a testimony.

Forgive me if appear to not be  concerned about  a serious thing, such as ones personal & emotional experiences..

I once had someone tell me " you can argue an argument but you can't argue an experience" to which I would say "who says!?" 

The church is filled with this thinking. We think that our experience means that we have connected with God.

 Ever hear people say , 'we gotta connect with God' or.  'come to our church, a great place to connect with God '

What does that mean "connect with God?"  

I know what their trying to say but doesn't it imply at times I'm not connected with God? 
This is where "feelings" come in. 


I'm sure all this connecting with God will yield to many experiences and I'm guessing that is the point. I'm all for listening to and sharing ones experiences but so often I'm told I must have one.. an experience that is, with God. 

Funny, I thought I was having one,daily that begins when my feet hit the floor in the morning and ends when I close my eyes at night then begins all over the next day. 

Oh, but that's not good enough for many. 


If we need to attend church to connect with God, how will we know if we did? Are there any rules for this connecting, do some people connect and some people don't? Is having an experience evidence of connecting and what of the intensity of the experience? Maybe there's levels of experience /connecting. 

I'm basically having fun here but the point is, the language we use creates something weird that can't be truly defined.
This  leaves the one not having experiences , confused.

I know I could get myself in trouble here because one just doesn't mess with someone's experiences and truthfully, one's experiences are of the utmost highest, vital  importance and should not be messed with.

 Our experiences often times define us but as with everything else, the language used by many churches concerning experiences quite often creates something weird. Something where christian  young people are told to go out and have them before their ever shown what it means to be daily repenting  of there sins they commit  each day. 

 This new odd abstract, subjective understanding of experience has them accessing life via  these experiences rather than the completed work of the cross. 

Way to often, the real things that are taking place in our lives get shoved into the "experience bag" just by saying "well, that's just YOUR experience" placing the whole discussion in a subjective realm

 and before to long we can't discern between real & experience.

 At the end of my life, I do not want to be taking inventory of the experiences of my life and trying to determine if the good ones outweighed the bad ones. 

If my daily walk with God is not enough to sing praises to Him daily with whatever good, or not so good, comes along, maybe I'm not doing something right. 

 And if I'm so blessed to have an "over the top" experience, praise God for that too. If People can be blessed from it, all the better. In every situation God be praised. 


I ended this post this way because if I made light of experiences, forgive me. Not the intent. 

My only point is, applying human wisdom to anything, even experiences, messes things up. 

Think about that the next time someone asks if you ever had an experience with God.
Suppose you can't think of one. Kinda sad needing too. Our daily service for God, done out of a growing love for Jesus should be enough. 
 The Bible does have much to say concerning experiences that's for sure. My suggestion :

TryreadNit! 

one vrs theology/Pt 2

One verse theology, as I have come to call it, has had an extreme adverse effect on this generation that is so incredibly off that I wonder if it can ever be recovered.

 Since I am a product of such a thing and my kids as well ,for I inadvertently passed some it along to them, something I truly regret and am spending much time going back around to them to to correct some of that 

but they are grown now but some progress is being made but it is hard because one verse theology touches many sensitive areas in any ones life 

because many verses have special meaning to the one going thru whatever situation they have,

and when those feelings that get generated from one verse get implanted in someone's mind , it is a hard thing to challenge. 

Our feelings concerning favorite verses is powerful. We just don't mess with this


A popular technique many use , when in communication with  believers is someone , sooner or later will ask  "what's wrong with single verses"?

There's nothing wrong with having favorite verses. 
I'm forever amazed when the right /wrong card gets thrown. 
Or when people ask "what's wrong with (this or that)

Suppose I were to observe someone eating ice cream three times a day , everyday.
Suppose I made note of it. 
I am assuredly going to be asked "what's wrong with eating ice cream?" 
I look at them dumbfounded because they somehow gathered there to be something "wrong" with the act itself. The problem isn't the ice cream. The problem is the abuse of it. 
Same with creating theology based on one verse. 
Discussing this sensible with anyone is  rare.  It's best to leave it be. 

I wish I could say it was the Bible that caused me to understand the deflecting (from the truth) nature  the "what's wrong with" question has on any conversation, but it wasn't. 
It was my 3 teens. 
Anytime I was trying to teach them something concerning cultural behavior, they would, in every instance ask "what's wrong with (whatever I was correcting.) 

Since I never actually said there was something wrong with the act itself and because it was the reoccurring response, I was forced to come up with an answer when they asked me "what's wrong with (this or that)

There is never (in these current days) a good answer to the "what's wrong with" question. Our society is too accepting of everything. 
The problem is not specifically in whatever the one is objecting to. 
The problem resides in the fact that whatever is being objected to, is being discussed at all. 
(i refer you back to that ice cream example) 
If we can discover why the discussion is needed at all (concerning obvious destructive behavior) then we can get closer to the real problem at hand.  

Key word there , in last thought is the word "obvious."

Keep in mind, I'm talking about Bible believing Christians conversation now. Non Christians rarely care. 

There's nothing wrong with reading one verse and liking it. 
Many times,  if the verse we favor doesn't accomplish or produce what "you" think it's supposed to, we tend to think  the verse is at fault.


Single verses can bring a great blessing to anyone but when this thinking is not kept in check , and gets abused by preachers , it makes our Bibles appear as a quick fix book. 
Folks forget that there favorite vrs are actually part of a greater thought and what they are doing is pulling out favorite thoughts . 

try reading any other book this way. one line here and another thought 3 chapters away.

Verse by number,   was not in original writings. Our Bible's are divided by verses & chapters.
Many times they are separated in the wrong place.
Reading the Bible with incorrect divisions (chapters) creates a false belief. By incorrect division I mean, men have separated God's message in wrong ways by placing the chapters where they did. Men "thought" they were helping but in truth, they were only helping to create heresy. 

Think about it. Prior to verses & chapter numbers, people would "SEARCH"  the Scriptures for answers.
Today people "LOOK UP" Scriptures to confirm our already formed opinion.

The first way has us looking for the answers. 
The second way has us trying to support OUR answers (beliefs) 

Take a moment to consider your attitude difference. 
What's your thinking when you "search" the Scriptures? 
What's your thinking when you "lookup" verses? 

There is a difference. 

See how problem can arise? 

Along with that, church's today dole out a lot , and I mean alot , of Law preaching to the believer using select verses. 
 This law stuff is hard to spot because it gets wrapped up in a package that is aimed at you and designed to make you better or at least try to make you better. 
It comes at us, one verse at a time .


The things any given sermon encourages us to do, (or not do)  we do not  associate what's said, with the Law. 
We think of these things as either good advice or not so good, advice. 
A mindset is formed and many times its based on what we like and don't like. 
We get caught up in focusing on verses rather than passages or books. 

My thoughts here concern what occurs over  time. Months & years & even decades. 
Not the immediate comfort single verses can give. 
It should be obvious, but it's not. 

When immediate strength is needed, how blessed we are too go to our favorite passages. 

But this journey we are on lasts a long long time.



The problem & solution to what I am saying concerning one verse theology can be seen in the temptation in the wilderness. 

satan used verses out of context.
Jesus used them in context. 
The solution is, reading the Bible in context. 
If we haven't read it cover to cover, then we have no clue as to what it means. 

It would be many years, for me, in this church life, till I would come to understand that. 
In the meantime, I would develop many false mindsets. 
I could impress the socks off of you with the things I heard others say. 

But when I read it myself, and saw how these one verses I've loved so long,were twisted and abused, I was amazed.

There are those who [KNOW] the comfort and peace one gets from a single verse in context and they are blessed.

Then there are those who know  [Of] that comfort & peace. In other words, they know the verse is there and they know its true. Their just not sure how or why. 

It's not so much about any one verse  bringing us comfort than it is knowing the One who said it.



Next thing you know, we'll be separating Jesus's Words with a different color, in our Bible's. 

Or we might have different Bible's for different segments of our culture (Bibles for mom's, Bibles for dad's, Bibles for  single mom, single dad, Bibles for drug addicts, Bibles for teens ,  etc) 

OK, since we already do that, I'd best not go further with that. I'm sure to be asked "what's wrong with those?"

All I'm trying to say is, many pitfalls await the one verse theology mindset when the entire context of the Bible, is not known. 

Best advice I can give is......  tryReadNit! 

one verse theology/Pt 1

I've come to love the old Testament prophets, major & minor but it's a bitter/sweet kinda thing.

 Over time I will share more in that light but there's something I'll never do on this blog when trying to convey this, and that is to use only one verse , one single verse,to make a point or declare my meaning on something or whatever else it is that so many people do with a one verse theology do. 

Of all the things that has affected me most since that first time going thru the Bible , and I've seen it countless times since then and that is what someone, anyone , can do when they get their hands on a single verse that they like. Man, the brain is off to the races.

 It doesn't even have to be a whole verse. People can take a partial verse ,something like Proverbs 29:18 , not even read the whole thing. 
The verse reads : Where there is no prophetic vision the people cast off restraint, but blessed is he who keeps the law.
Most preachers only read half of that verse.


 From that  partial verse we can launch off into a summer sermon series..  People never read the entire verse.  If they were to do that then the premise that a preacher , or anyone for that matter , is trying to set would most likely be debunked. The best way to debunk many sermons is to read the chapter before and after whatever verse anyone is using to make a point. 

At some point in my Christian life of going to church, it dawned on me that a message from any pulpit was usually some mans thinking built around one verse from the Bible when actually , the Bible itself WAS the message. 

Clarity to that would not come until I read through it myself the first time.

 Reading partial verses opens the door to what we now have as group therapy on any given Sunday morning and what amazes me is the people sit there and take it.
This deception  has been  crafted  so extremely well . 
Often times, using various verses to make sermon points is called, topical preaching and at times, it has its place. 
But much caution & discernment is needed when under such teaching. 
Often times, putting single verses back  into context contradicts many topical sermons. 

It's up to the hearer if their going to allow such liberties taken with scripture. 

Someone could object to topical sermons, but Its easier to just forget it.
Trying to communicate with anyone who has a purpose driven mindset is  never easy.

People do not know how to respond to believers who ask questions. 


Objecting to popular books & series, that that the church endorses isn't fun. 
For example , some people think there's a diet plan in Daniel because someone told them that.(there isn't any diet plan)
Some read Jesus calling. (origin of that book is "new age")
Christians love everything from the shack to the message (translation) without ever examining it.


My first trip through the Bible was met with so many false examples of theologies based on one verse that when I began to see them , I wanted to keep a list of them so I took note of them but it got to the point that there were so many false beliefs surrounding any one vrs thinking that I lost count and gave up recording them. Everything from Jesus knocking on the door to some sinners heart to God has a purpose for me.

I got tired of answering others  retorts to my objecting to one vrs theology. 
People  apply  the negative aspects to whatever it was that I was saying , (instead of actually looking at the context of what they heard me saying )  and soon, very soon, communication became extremely difficult.
Truthfully, we all do that, myself included. 

One vrs theology creates a new weird thing that likes to remain in the abstract world, one where no one can quite get a grasp of it, one where it keeps people fighting because that is so much more desirable than to actually sit down and read, the Bible, in full context. 

 Reading in  context will take years to consume

 [ and that is not welcome in this "gotta have it now" culture ]  

One vrs theology creates something brand new, something practically un touchable because it resides in the hopes and dreams and abilities of anyone hearing it and if anyone dares to challenge that, they are in for a most frustrating adventure. 

 Many, like myself , don't say anything and eventually, in this wonderful world we have, begin a blog. Something that someone like myself had no idea of what that meant ,until now.
I  needed some kind of outlet to express all that's been going on since I came to Love Gods Word.

This might be a good place to express something else I am extremely thankful for.
  I can say this to any man and or husband.   If you are so blessed to have a wife who is patient beyond measure, any day that you might forget to thank God for that , I would say shame on you.
Ok, I am being a bit dramatic here but the point is, having a "praying for her husband " wife is a dangerous thing. It's  so dangerous that when God answered my wife's prayers , she didn't think it would look like what it did.
She hung in there, at a cost of almost losing everything .
Yes , I love my wife dearly but I caution anyone as they  begin reading God's Word in context. 


In time I will share favorite passages and I might even use a verse to do it but that verse will always, always be used in the context of the chapter and book it came from. Not ever in a context  of my own thinking or beliefs. What I think has little to do with anything

 Some future post might attempt to deal with what I have learned from communication with others holding opposing views but all I know for sure is that if I am to have a discussion with anyone having an opposing view other than my own , I would prefer it to be with one who is not a christian.

 It is rare, very rare to engage in REAL communication with a Christian who holds a different view and that is simply because , (and here is where I begin to have trouble) something odd takes place .
I can not quite identify but I think it has something to do with taking verse out of context.

 ,



I began this post expressing my ever growing love for the prophets of the Old testament ,major and minor.
Preachers love using single verses from the Old Testament.
  I think I will put that in another post so for now, as always , the things I convey as I post things I would ask anyone to not believe a word I say. My only desire is to challenge one to just........

tryreadNit!